The price of Russian weapons

H

hamidreza

Active member
Ground Units
Tanks and other armored units
NOTE: T-80 production has ceased. You have to get Ukrainian T-84s if you want them now.

* T-90A 'Vladimir' MBT: $4.15 million (based on Russian MOD)
* T-90M MBT: $3.5 million - (based on Indian purchase)
* T-90S MBT: $3.9 million - (based on Cyprus purchase)
* BMPT Tank Support Fighting Vehicle: $3 million - (educated guess based on the cost of a T-90)
* BMP-3M IFV: ~$3.5-4 million - (based on how dumbed down Greek vehicles were, and South Korean press release)
* BMP-3 IFV: $3.2 million for basic unit (based on Greek purchase)
* BMD-4 ACV: ~$4 million
* BMD-3 ACV: $3.5 million
* 2S25 Sprut-D: $4.5 million - (guess based on the cost of the BMD-3)
* BTR-90M IFV: ~$2 million (more guessing)
* BTR-90 IFV: ~$1.5 million (educated guess based on a statement that it costs half as much as the Stryker)
* BTR-82A IFV: ~$1.4 million - (See below)
* BTR-80A IFV: ~$1.2 million (guess based on relation to BTR-90)
* BRDM-3 Recce: ~$1.2 million (guess based on it being a BTR-80A variant)
* BTR-T APC: $700,000 on Russian-supplied T-55 (based on costs for similar vehicles)
* BTR-80 APC: $400,000 (guess based on prices for surplus units in late-90s)

Upgrades to existing tanks and armored units

* BMD-4 ACV: $500,000 upgrading from BMD-3 to BMD-4.
* BTR-T APC: $400,000 as an upgrade of existing stocks, $700,000 if you dont have any T-55s to upgrade (based on costs for similar vehicles)
* BMPT Tank Support Fighting Vehicle: $1.4 million as an upgrade to existing T-72 stocks - (based on BTR-T upgrade costs and T-72 modernization projects)
* T-55M5: $700,000 as an upgrade of existing stocks. This modernization kit adds convex explosive reactive armour "Kontakt-5" panels around turret front, armour panel on glacis plate, a longer hull, a new style fire control equipment with stabilized TVK-3 and TKN-1SM sights for the gunner and commander, an improved V-55U engine (or V-46-5M) and a main gun stabilization system. The original 100 mm D-10T2S gun is maintained
* T-55M6: $1.8 million as an upgrade of existing stocks ($2.4 million with options). A more radical upgrade with longer chassis with 6 road wheels each side, a 690 hp V-46-5M diesel engine and with the complete turret with automatic loader and 2A46M 125mm main gun of the T-72BM. Also the protection was increased to T-80U level. Optionally the tank can be equipped with the 1A40-1 fire control system with ATGM system 9K120 "Svir" (as T-72B) or with the 1A42 and 9K119 "Refleks" systems (as T-80U).
* T-72BM: $800,000 as an upgrade of existing stocks. This adds a new 125mm gun, 1,000 hp diesel, a thermal gunners site, new camouflage, and Relikt ERA (which is supposed to be twice as effective as Kontakt-5)
* BMP-1P: $600,000 as an upgrade of existing stocks. Adds a 9P13M Konkurs launcher on an exposed pintle.
* BMP-1PG: $350,000 as an upgrade of existing stocks. Adds an AGS-17 auto grenade launcher.
* BMP-1MS: $920,000 as an upgrade of existing stocks. Adds a new turret with 2 2A42 30mm autocannons, 1 Kornet launcher and 1 PKTM coax machine gun.

Artillery, rockets and missiles

* BM-30 300mm MRL: $12.1 million (based on very recent sale to India)
* 2S19 152mm SPH: $2.25 million (based on 2000 price)
* 2A65/MZ-146-1 152mm towed howitzer: $800,000 - (based on the costs of the French 155mm SP and towed howitzers, and the 2S19)
* 2S31 120mm SP Gun/Mortar: $1 million (based on 2000 price)
* 2S23 120mm SP Gun/Mortar: ~$750,000 (based on 2000 price
* 9K720 Iskander: $120 million per battery (6 launch vehicles, 24 missiles, command and support vehicles) - (wild guess)

Missile systems

* S-400 (SA-21): $400 million per fire unit (8 launchers, 112 missiles, command and support vehicles) (estimate based on performance figures, larger missile load, etc)
* S-300PMU-2 - (SA-20B): $200 million per fire unit (6 launchers, 48 missiles, command and support vehicles) (guess based on below)
* S-300PMU-1 - (SA-20A): $160 million per fire unit (6 launchers, 48 missiles, command and support vehicles) - (based on VERY recent Iranian order and other sales)
* Buk-M1-2 (SA-17): ~$120 million per battalion with 6 TELARs, 6 transloaders, & 36 missiles (pretty much a guess)
* Tor-M1 (SA-15): $25 million (based on possible future sale)
* Pantsir-S1: $16+ million (based on sale to Algeria)
* Bastion-P Coastal Defense Battery: $150 million for radar, control center, 6 launchers, & 36 missiles - (based on Syrian buy)

Aircraft
Fighters (multirole, air superiority, strike)

* Su-35: $75+ million - (most legitimate claims were $65 million, but the Su-30s real price makes it clear the Su-35 should be significantly higher than that)
* Su-30MK series: $60-70 million - (contract prices vary widely, from $50 million to Malaysia to over $80 million per unit for the Algerian trade-in)
* Su-33: ~$60-70 million - (based on relative prices of other Russian aircraft)
* Su-32: ~$60-65 million - (based on relative prices of other Russian aircraft)
* MiG-35: $55-60 million (assuming this is just referring to flyaway)
* MiG-29K: ~$50-55 million (Indian acquisition was $46+ in 2004, should be slightly more expensive than MiG-29M, which has most of the improved features but is not reinforced for carrier operations)
* MiG-29M: ~$50+ million ($5-10 mil more than SMT)
* MiG-29SMT: $45+ million (various contracts at between $40 and $45 million, some as low as $37. But, cheaper ones, as shown in the last link, arent quite new-build)

Helicopters and ground attack aircraft

* Ka-52: ~$40-50 million (based on below)
* Ka-50N: ~$35-45 million (based on Mi-28 cost)
* Mi-28: ~$35-40 million (based on sale of used units to Turkey)
* Mi-35: $16+ million (based on sale to Venezuela)
* Ka-60/64: $12 million (based on sale to India)
* Mi-17/Mi-8: $9 million (based on sale to Venezuela)
* Ka-27: $12 million - (based on the costs of the similar in size Mi-17)
* Mi-26M: $18 million - (guess based on military-today, adjusted upwards 50%)
* Su-25TM/Su-39: $40 million - (rough estimate)
 
Transports, tankers, AEW&C aircraft and trainers
In late 2009, Dmitry Medvedev announced that Russian production of the An-124 will resume, making the aircraft available from a Russian manufacturer.

* A-50 AEW&C: ~$250-300 million as upgrade of existing Il-76, +$30 million for Il-76 aircraft - (extremely rough estimate based on 15-year-old joint Russian/Israeli program for China)
* Il-78M Tanker: $35 million (based on 2001 contract and inflation)
* Il-76MF: $50 million - (based on Jordanian purchase)
* Il-76MD-90: $40+ million - (based on MF cost)
* An-124-102: $195 million (based on this data)
* An-124-200: $160 million (based on this estimate)
* An-124-100M: $150 million (based on this estimate)
* Tu-214: $40+ million - (estimate based on Wikipedia and Il-76 costs)
* Il-112V: $20 million - (estimate based on Il-76 costs)
* Sukhoi Superjet 100: $30 million - (based on this contract)
* Yak-130: $13 million - (based on 2007 sale)

UAVs

* Yakolev Pchela UAV: $22 million per system (mobile ground control station, technological truck, loader/transporter, 10 Pchela with expendables)
* ZALA 421-12 UAV: $340,000
* ZALA 421-06 helicopter UAV: $380,000
* ZALA 421-8 micro UAV: $172,000 per system (2 UAV, portable ground station, 2 spare power supply, backpack)
* Dozor 600 UAV: $4 million per system (mobile ground control station/truck, 6 UAVs)

Aircraft Upgrades
* MiG-21-93: $4.5 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Adds a new radar (MiG-29 class), upgraded avionics, improved cockpit egonomy, and the capability to fire Vympel R-27 (NATO: AA-10 'Alamo') and Vympel R-77 (NATO: AA-12 'Adder') missiles, along with airframe life extension.
* MiG-21-97: $5.5 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Includes the MiG-21-93 package, plus the Klimov RD-33 engine. Evaluations place this in the F-16 class.
* MiG-23-98: $6 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Adds a new radar, new self-defense suite, new avionics, improved cockpit ergonomy, helmet-mounted sight, and the capability to fire Vympel R-27 (NATO: AA-10 'Alamo') and Vympel R-77 (NATO: AA-12 'Adder') missiles, along with airframe life extension.
* MiG-29SMT: $21 million as an upgrade of existing stocks.
* Su-27SM2: $37 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Avionics and weapons upgrades to Su-35 class, plus the Salyut AL-31F-M1 engine.
* MiG-31BM: $7 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Avionics upgrade, HOTAS, cockpit update, upgrade to the NIIP Zaslon radar. Adds ability to use R-77/RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) missiles, and the full range of air-to-ground weapons. Price based on 2007 contract to upgrade Kazakh MiG-31s
* Su-30MKIB Super 30: $12 million as an upgrade to existing Su-30MKI. Adds the Zhuk ASE AESA radar, modernizes the onboard computers and ECM to Su-35 standards, adds the ability to use the BrahMos missile.

Naval Units

Submarines

* Borei Nuclear Submarine: $1.4 billion+ - (rough estimate)
* Graney Nuclear Submarine: $1 billion+ - (rough estimate)
* Akula II Nuclear Submarine: $800+ millon - (based on suggested cost of finishing 2 and estimated cost in '07)
* Amur 1650 Submarine: $450 million (based on statement that theyre $100 million cheaper than contemporaries)
* Amur 950 Submarine: ~$400 million (mostly an educated guess)
* Improved Kilo (636) Submarine: ~$300 million - (contracts vary from $250 to $350 million each, but the Algerian sale hits right in the middle)

Surface warships

* Sovremenny I/II Destroyer (956EM): $800+ million - (based on 2002 sale to China)
* Gorshkov Frigate: $400 million - (based on this estimate)
* Krivak III Frigate: $400 million (based on 2006 Indian purchase)
* Gepard Frigate: $150-200 million, depending on variant - (no good links, but Vietnam appears to have paid $300 million for 2)
* Tigr Corvette: ~$150+ million - (based on globalsecuritys statement. Its also a development of the Stergushchy)
* Stergushchy Corvette: $150 million - (based on this figure at current exchange rates)
* Tarantul Missile Corvette: $65+ million (based on estimates for a sale to Libya)
* Molniya Missile Corvette: $60+ million (based on sale to Vietnam, and the fact that its basically just a Tarantul with different missiles)
* Buyan Corvette: $60 million - (based on the price of the similarly-sized Tarantul. The Buyan is not as heavily armed, but does include stealth features, so this seems a reasonable compromise cost.)
* Ivan Gren landing ship: $45 million (based on the cost of the similar Frank S. Besson class LSV)
* Zubr class heavy LCAC: $79 million (based on a recent sale to China)

Munitions

* P800 Yakhont: - $2.5-3 million - (estimate based on Syrian buy)
* Kh-31AM: ~$1.5 million - (estimate based on US purchase of target drone version with no guidance or warhead)
* Kh-31PM: ~$1.3 million - (estimate based on above)
* Igla-S (SA-24) MANPADS: ~$1.6-1.8 million for 1 launcher and 10 missiles - (based on below)
* Igla (SA-18) MANPADS: $1.4 million for 1 launcher and 10 missiles - (based on this source for cost and this for number)
* Kornet-E (AT-14) ATGM: $875,000 for 1 launcher and 10 missiles - (based on recent Turkish buy)
* Metis-M (AT-13) ATGM: ~$500,000 for 1 launcher & 10 missiles - (based off unconfirmed data and inflaition compared to Kornet price)

FUTURE SYSTEMS
Russias often hard to gauge on future equipments because it has a history of suppressing information until theyre ready to be demonstrated. Thus, its mostly supposition as to whats coming next, but we do know of a few things that are definitely in the works.

Ground:
T-95 MBT: $5.2 million estimate. Russian military involvement was cancelled April 2010, but it could still be developed and marketed as a private venture. IOC probably 2013-2016 if continued.
S-500: $450 million as a very rough estimate. Little is known other than that it's NOT a development of the S-400, and is intended to provide better ballistic missile defense. Expected for an IOC of 2012.

Air:
*PAK-FA: Russia claims $80 million, Insiders say easily $100-120+, maybe even as high as $135 million. Ill assume that the higher ones are export price, though even that very well may not be. First flight in 2010, and based on delays, were probably looking at service in 2014-2016.
Il-214: $40 million rough estimate. Joint venture with India, IOC expected around 2016.

Naval:
New Carrier: ~$3-5 billion each. Some sources state a new class of 2-4 carriers is in the works, with construction starting 2013-2014. May or may not amount to anything.
New Amphibious Ship: ~$300-800 million each, depending on specs. See above.
Pauk replacement: Theyll start needing it soon. Nothing in the works that I know of though, and they may just be left unreplaced due to increasing blue-water emphasis.
 
hamidreza said:
Transports, tankers, AEW&C aircraft and trainers
In late 2009, Dmitry Medvedev announced that Russian production of the An-124 will resume, making the aircraft available from a Russian manufacturer.

* A-50 AEW&C: ~$250-300 million as upgrade of existing Il-76, +$30 million for Il-76 aircraft - (extremely rough estimate based on 15-year-old joint Russian/Israeli program for China)
* Il-78M Tanker: $35 million (based on 2001 contract and inflation)
* Il-76MF: $50 million - (based on Jordanian purchase)
* Il-76MD-90: $40+ million - (based on MF cost)
* An-124-102: $195 million (based on this data)
* An-124-200: $160 million (based on this estimate)
* An-124-100M: $150 million (based on this estimate)
* Tu-214: $40+ million - (estimate based on Wikipedia and Il-76 costs)
* Il-112V: $20 million - (estimate based on Il-76 costs)
* Sukhoi Superjet 100: $30 million - (based on this contract)
* Yak-130: $13 million - (based on 2007 sale)

UAVs

* Yakolev Pchela UAV: $22 million per system (mobile ground control station, technological truck, loader/transporter, 10 Pchela with expendables)
* ZALA 421-12 UAV: $340,000
* ZALA 421-06 helicopter UAV: $380,000
* ZALA 421-8 micro UAV: $172,000 per system (2 UAV, portable ground station, 2 spare power supply, backpack)
* Dozor 600 UAV: $4 million per system (mobile ground control station/truck, 6 UAVs)

Aircraft Upgrades
* MiG-21-93: $4.5 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Adds a new radar (MiG-29 class), upgraded avionics, improved cockpit egonomy, and the capability to fire Vympel R-27 (NATO: AA-10 'Alamo') and Vympel R-77 (NATO: AA-12 'Adder') missiles, along with airframe life extension.
* MiG-21-97: $5.5 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Includes the MiG-21-93 package, plus the Klimov RD-33 engine. Evaluations place this in the F-16 class.
* MiG-23-98: $6 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Adds a new radar, new self-defense suite, new avionics, improved cockpit ergonomy, helmet-mounted sight, and the capability to fire Vympel R-27 (NATO: AA-10 'Alamo') and Vympel R-77 (NATO: AA-12 'Adder') missiles, along with airframe life extension.
* MiG-29SMT: $21 million as an upgrade of existing stocks.
* Su-27SM2: $37 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Avionics and weapons upgrades to Su-35 class, plus the Salyut AL-31F-M1 engine.
* MiG-31BM: $7 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Avionics upgrade, HOTAS, cockpit update, upgrade to the NIIP Zaslon radar. Adds ability to use R-77/RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) missiles, and the full range of air-to-ground weapons. Price based on 2007 contract to upgrade Kazakh MiG-31s
* Su-30MKIB Super 30: $12 million as an upgrade to existing Su-30MKI. Adds the Zhuk ASE AESA radar, modernizes the onboard computers and ECM to Su-35 standards, adds the ability to use the BrahMos missile.

Naval Units

Submarines

* Borei Nuclear Submarine: $1.4 billion+ - (rough estimate)
* Graney Nuclear Submarine: $1 billion+ - (rough estimate)
* Akula II Nuclear Submarine: $800+ millon - (based on suggested cost of finishing 2 and estimated cost in '07)
* Amur 1650 Submarine: $450 million (based on statement that theyre $100 million cheaper than contemporaries)
* Amur 950 Submarine: ~$400 million (mostly an educated guess)
* Improved Kilo (636) Submarine: ~$300 million - (contracts vary from $250 to $350 million each, but the Algerian sale hits right in the middle)

Surface warships

* Sovremenny I/II Destroyer (956EM): $800+ million - (based on 2002 sale to China)
* Gorshkov Frigate: $400 million - (based on this estimate)
* Krivak III Frigate: $400 million (based on 2006 Indian purchase)
* Gepard Frigate: $150-200 million, depending on variant - (no good links, but Vietnam appears to have paid $300 million for 2)
* Tigr Corvette: ~$150+ million - (based on globalsecuritys statement. Its also a development of the Stergushchy)
* Stergushchy Corvette: $150 million - (based on this figure at current exchange rates)
* Tarantul Missile Corvette: $65+ million (based on estimates for a sale to Libya)
* Molniya Missile Corvette: $60+ million (based on sale to Vietnam, and the fact that its basically just a Tarantul with different missiles)
* Buyan Corvette: $60 million - (based on the price of the similarly-sized Tarantul. The Buyan is not as heavily armed, but does include stealth features, so this seems a reasonable compromise cost.)
* Ivan Gren landing ship: $45 million (based on the cost of the similar Frank S. Besson class LSV)
* Zubr class heavy LCAC: $79 million (based on a recent sale to China)

Munitions

* P800 Yakhont: - $2.5-3 million - (estimate based on Syrian buy)
* Kh-31AM: ~$1.5 million - (estimate based on US purchase of target drone version with no guidance or warhead)
* Kh-31PM: ~$1.3 million - (estimate based on above)
* Igla-S (SA-24) MANPADS: ~$1.6-1.8 million for 1 launcher and 10 missiles - (based on below)
* Igla (SA-18) MANPADS: $1.4 million for 1 launcher and 10 missiles - (based on this source for cost and this for number)
* Kornet-E (AT-14) ATGM: $875,000 for 1 launcher and 10 missiles - (based on recent Turkish buy)
* Metis-M (AT-13) ATGM: ~$500,000 for 1 launcher & 10 missiles - (based off unconfirmed data and inflaition compared to Kornet price)

FUTURE SYSTEMS
Russias often hard to gauge on future equipments because it has a history of suppressing information until theyre ready to be demonstrated. Thus, its mostly supposition as to whats coming next, but we do know of a few things that are definitely in the works.

Ground:
T-95 MBT: $5.2 million estimate. Russian military involvement was cancelled April 2010, but it could still be developed and marketed as a private venture. IOC probably 2013-2016 if continued.
S-500: $450 million as a very rough estimate. Little is known other than that it's NOT a development of the S-400, and is intended to provide better ballistic missile defense. Expected for an IOC of 2012.

Air:
*PAK-FA: Russia claims $80 million, Insiders say easily $100-120+, maybe even as high as $135 million. Ill assume that the higher ones are export price, though even that very well may not be. First flight in 2010, and based on delays, were probably looking at service in 2014-2016.
Il-214: $40 million rough estimate. Joint venture with India, IOC expected around 2016.

Naval:
New Carrier: ~$3-5 billion each. Some sources state a new class of 2-4 carriers is in the works, with construction starting 2013-2014. May or may not amount to anything.
New Amphibious Ship: ~$300-800 million each, depending on specs. See above.
Pauk replacement: Theyll start needing it soon. Nothing in the works that I know of though, and they may just be left unreplaced due to increasing blue-water emphasis.
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So you are the replacement of Victor Bout. Do you have a website where I can "add to basket" if I want to purchase any of the listed items?
 
hawky94 said:
What's the price on an old Hind? Just out of interest. :P
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Beats me but I would love an old Mil-24-D they sort of have a rugged charm about them that I think could settle my road rage in a few seconds.

I imagine you could pick up one up from any former soviet block airfield for a few cases of vodka hell throw in $20 and you would get the crew to go with it.
 
..........ROFL:ROFL:LOL:ROFL:ROFL
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Hey guys what did I miss? I saw the sale and flew over as fast as I could!
 
Yossarian said:
..........ROFL:ROFL:LOL:ROFL:ROFL
..........................II
....L............../---------\
..LOL======.\_________[]\
....L...............\__________/
..........................l.....l
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Hey guys what did I miss? I saw the sale and flew over as fast as I could!
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You haven't missed anything. There is a great offer open until the end of the month. Buy five and get one for free, regardless your needs. There are also different offers which include the crews as well, depending where you want to utilize the items of this fall offer. Larger orders! Call and we deliver the items to a desirable location for free and with additional spare parts and more air miles points. If you are our first customer, we will give you a gift as a bonus
 
Don't forget these weapons have Warranty for ten years even in war time. Just bring the weapons body or the crews corpse to get new one.
 
hamidreza said:
Don't forget these weapons have Warranty for ten years even in war time. Just bring the weapons body or the crews corpse to get new one.
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Now that is what I call service!

I am tired of these "breaks to make you buy more" products here stateside.

It's good to see that customer service still exist in the world. No wonder 8 out of 10 dictator's approve.:peace:
 
Some of the weapons are up to date but some such as the T-80/90 MBT are really getting obsolete. Russia should look for investors aka potential buyers to fund the development of newer weapons. Like how the US JSF program received funding from US and NATO allies to build the F-35. This is how things work nowadays, since demand for expensive military hardware especially has dropped tremendously such as aircraft and higher end missiles.

Back then a country would buy in bulk at least several dozens to hundreds. Today, they buy in only few dozens be it aircraft or tanks. Demand vs price concept:
1) when demand goes up, price goes down.
2) when demand goes down, price goes up.

Russia's reputation is tarnished over few wars where it would stop all military sales to country that was imposed arms embargo. Because of this, its allies including the richer nations would think twice before buying Russian goods that would require spare parts supply. Not that I support war, but a country should be given its right to arms access in order to fend for itself in war. Should UN declare war on Syria after receiving green light, it should be allowed to purchase weapons, supplies, etc from Russia, China, France, etc. If it survived, fine. If it is defeated, at least they get to fight all they've got and at their best. It's still an honor. War is always bad, but Russian manufacturers have their rights to earn income too.
 
You can't buy weapons system in store, you are ordering them from factory. Each sale is separate negotiation.
But cost of division (battalion) of S 300 PMU2 (SA 20B) cost around 125 M$ 2006. (8 batalion to China and Algeria for 1000 M$).
Buk (SA 17) was paid 400 M$ for 6 battalions by Vietnam. They bought a lot of weapons so they might get discount. So I would put praise at 70 M$.
Pantsir 1S was costing around 23 M$ 2006. (Algeria got 38 units for 900 M$, Syria 36 for 800 M$). UAE bought that system while it was in developing, and when KBP needed money for project. That's why they got such sweet deal.
 
jayraptor said:
Some of the weapons are up to date but some such as the T-80/90 MBT are really getting obsolete. Russia should look for investors aka potential buyers to fund the development of newer weapons. Like how the US JSF program received funding from US and NATO allies to build the F-35. This is how things work nowadays, since demand for expensive military hardware especially has dropped tremendously such as aircraft and higher end missiles.

Back then a country would buy in bulk at least several dozens to hundreds. Today, they buy in only few dozens be it aircraft or tanks. Demand vs price concept:
1) when demand goes up, price goes down.
2) when demand goes down, price goes up.

Russia's reputation is tarnished over few wars where it would stop all military sales to country that was imposed arms embargo. Because of this, its allies including the richer nations would think twice before buying Russian goods that would require spare parts supply. Not that I support war, but a country should be given its right to arms access in order to fend for itself in war. Should UN declare war on Syria after receiving green light, it should be allowed to purchase weapons, supplies, etc from Russia, China, France, etc. If it survived, fine. If it is defeated, at least they get to fight all they've got and at their best. It's still an honor. War is always bad, but Russian manufacturers have their rights to earn income too.
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T80 and T-90 are still perfectly good tanks. The M1 Abrams has been in service as long as the T-80, for example.

Anyway, IMHO, it's not the tank, it's the tankist/driver that really matters. Look at the war in South Ossetia, in August 2008. Russian boys went in on T-80s mostly, even many were on T-62s!
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The Georgian forces there had, on average, newer, more modern armour than the Russian 58th Army that engaged them. They had new Ukrainian version of T-80
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And the Russians destroyed them
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The tanks weren't better, the tankists were.
 
RusCan2013 said:
Anyway, IMHO, it's not the tank, it's the tankist/driver that really matters. Look at the war in South Ossetia, in August 2008. Russian boys went in on T-80s mostly, even many were on T-62s!
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That to me is about the equivalent of saying "its not whether you win or lose that counts but how you play the game" it is the speech you give the losers.

In a battle of equals or near equals you are right it comes down to the quality of the crew but to date Russian armour has not proven itself to be equal, lets assume you have two crews of equal training but ones MBT can hit the other at 5000 meters and the other only at 2000 meters who is going to win?

Now I accept that to date the West has only gone up against "Export" Russian tanks but it has been an incredibly one sided contest, I also accept that things may be changing and that the old Russian doctrine of "quantity has a quality of its own" is gradually going I just don't think it is there yet.
 
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MontyB said:
Beats me but I would love an old Mil-24-D they sort of have a rugged charm about them that I think could settle my road rage in a few seconds.

I imagine you could pick up one up from any former soviet block airfield for a few cases of vodka hell throw in $20 and you would get the crew to go with it.
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A South African friend of mine served on the border war with Angola, he stated that the only thing that really scared the crap out of him were the Hinds. They were nasty bits of kit or so he reckoned.
 
Russian/Ukranian tanks aren't such bad as western propaganda paint them to be. Rule is to design tank based on your own terrain and combat experience. Russian prefer speed over armor in their tanks, also they like low profile at expend of tankers comfort. Also Russian based tanks are cheap and more reliable than Abrams tank. For example during Desert storm team of 12 people from Yugoslavia was maintaining all 80ish Kuwaiti M 84 tanks. When those tanks were designed they were pretty good for threads they were expected. One thing that is most criticized at Russian tanks is place where auto loader is placed, which is below turret. That is place that statisticaly is least shot at in tank battles. Much bigger problem is additional ammo storage that is placed behind commander, and fact that ammunition is 2 part (shell and gunpowder bag). Designer were thincking, if tank got penetrated it is pretty much game over for them, let make not to get penetrated at first place.Or shot. ERA and APS is now added to tanks to make them less vulnerable. Also they are using anti-armor missiles from tank's gun, so they get great accuracy on longer distance with cheaper fire control system.
And both Abrams and T 80/90 are getting obsoleted this days, and both Americans and Russians are working on new tank design.
 
? Oh, the Russian began cheat moneys by sell their arms of poor quality.:m16shoot:

Believe me, an anti-tank mines only worth with $100 enough blow up the track of T90 tank. then the tank can't mobilize, stay at the ground and waiting to dead. Vary of anti-weapons had sufficient times aim it's target.(Anti-armor rocket,missile and artilery ,Antitank guns....ect) .

of course ,the most stupid thing is shoot down the soldiers around this tank. then the infantry rush to tank and end it use explosive.


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hamidreza said:
Ground Units
Tanks and other armored units
NOTE: T-80 production has ceased. You have to get Ukrainian T-84s if you want them now.

* T-90A 'Vladimir' MBT: $4.15 million (based on Russian MOD)
* T-90M MBT: $3.5 million - (based on Indian purchase)
* T-90S MBT: $3.9 million - (based on Cyprus purchase)
)
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Something is very fishy in that video. Are you sure that T 72 wasn't filled with explosives which were detonated remotely?
And T 72 wasn't design to be good, it was designed to be cheap and easy to produce. T 62 and T 80 were designed to be good.
 
BritinAfrica said:
A South African friend of mine served on the border war with Angola, he stated that the only thing that really scared the crap out of him were the Hinds. They were nasty bits of kit or so he reckoned.
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I can imagine it would, the Hind just looks nasty there are no sleek lines or smooth surfaces of a western helicopter it is just a flying gun platform I suspect the designer had a vision of the psychological effect one of those could produce.

When I ran into the one at the Luftwaffe Museum last year I couldn't believe my luck, sadly it wasn't for sale.

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